Posts by Island Man

16

JW's and the forgotten Jesus

by LevelThePlayingField in

so as i have been waking up more and more over the past 3 years...i keep telling myself i'm fully awake and then i wake up more, but that's a different thread.

but anyway, i've noticed a lot lately that the wt does not mention jesus or christ very much in their literature and neither to jw's in their conversations.

they mainly talk about jehovah.

It's true. Jehovah's Witnesses have a purely doctrinal relationship with Jesus. They only mention him when they're discussing some doctrinal issue like refuting the trinity, or quoting Jesus' words to support some doctrine.

Outside of doctrine, Jesus isn't real to them. He is not in their hearts. Only Jehovah and the organization is in their hearts. That's why they always speak of provisions made available by the organization as coming from Jehovah and never give Jesus any credit. That's why they call themselves "servants of Jehovah" but never call themselves "servants of Jesus" even though that term is also scriptural since there are multiple NT references to Christians being slaves of Jesus Christ. That's why they speak of "Jehovah's Organization" but never speak of "Jesus' Organization".

For a group professing to be christian, they have a strangely distant relationship with Jesus - even for non-Trinitarians. When one reads the NT one sees the way the writers regularly mentions Jesus in the opening greetings of letters and in doxologies. JWs are nothing like that. They have a peculiarly strange and distant relationship with Jesus.

I believe the reason for this is that they have grown oversensitive in their self-righteous revulsion to the trinity doctrine to the point that they don't even want to give Jesus any legitimate praise or mention him too often for fear that they might be viewed as worshiping him or worst - appear remotely similar to other churches in christendom. They have been over-reached by their own hatred of christendom so that they have deviated to the opposite extreme from the Trinitarians, refusing to give Jesus adequate honor.

22

How do you prove the watchtower organisation is not genuine using recent evidence?

by punkofnice in

when i was a jobo, i would say that anything in jobo history, eg.

miracle wheat, beth sarim et al (old light), wasn't worth considering as evidence that the wbt$ was a weirdo cult.. i think that's probably the jobo mindset now.. what would you show them from very recent lies teachings to encourage them to consider the possibility the wbt$ is a scam?.

Island Man

You read them those scriptures in the gospels that talk about christians being brought before judges and God's spirit giving them wisdom that their accusers can't refute.

Then you show them the atrocious, dishonest, shameful testimonies of the elders, branch officials and Geoffrey Jackson at the ARC and you ask them:

"Do you see any evidence that God's spirit empowered them with irrefutable wisdom?"

13

REAL Community service now allowed?

by ab.ortega in

at watchtowers website there is an undated article under "helping the community" relating how in 2015, jw's from russia participated in the 'springtime beautification of the city'.

it is not stated but more than likely this had to do with preparations for some assembly or something.

a group of witness going out to clean the community just for goodwill - i don't see it happening.

Island Man

As far as I understand, JWs in Russia do some perfunctory charity work once per year - typically cleaning some public area like a park or the streets - because they're required by Russian law to do so in order to remain qualified as an approved religion or charity in Russia. So this is not something they're doing voluntarily out of the goodness of their hearts. It's something they're legally obligated to do in Russia.

12

What is meant by the expression

by poopie in

jw
friends

persistent spiritual association?.

Island Man

I think this term applies specifically to the context of JWs associating with DFd or DAd relatives. It could be a charge leveled against you when your privileges in the congregation are taken from you because you continue to associate with a DFd relative.

Watchtower says no association should exist between current JWs and DFd or DAd ex-JWs. But they say that if the ex-JW is a relative or spouse living in the same house with a JW, then necessary family association can still occur to a reasonable degree but that no spiritual association is to take place.

If the ex-JW is not living in the same house but is a relative, then the elders still cannot DF a JW for associating with them. The most that can be done is to disqualify them from having any privileges in the congregation.

So when it's a case of family living in the same house, the grounds for punishing non-shunners changes from any kind of association to spiritual association. Of course, these facts are not stated much, if at all, in JW literature that is available to all JWs. Watchtower keeps it hidden in the elders' manual and tells JWs to show loyalty by shunning their ex-JW relatives, period.

15

Where Can One Get Answers To Questions From JWs?

by Cold Steel in

there's also a fellow who calls himself the "watchman," but he seems as critical as many of the so-called "apostates.

" is there a place where one can ask questions from knowledgeable believers or "a" believer?

i really don't want to take the bible lessons.

Island Man

I think this is the best place to ask. The people on here will tell you the straight facts about what JWs believe and teach without any spin, sugar-coating or omissions that JWs commonly resort to in a bid to make their religion seem more appealing and less cult-like than it actually is.

When you ask certain questions to current JWs they either don't know the answer - because they are a lower-ranked JW who is not privy to certian organizational information - or they are privy to the info. but refuse to give the answer or pretend to not know the answer because of loyally abiding by the organization's confidentiality rules. Then you also have the JWs who will outright lie to you or use carefully chosen words to mislead you because they fear that giving you the whole truth and nothing but the truth will make their beloved organization look bad.

The persons on here are not beholden to following Watchtower policies on confidentiality and their ability to speak truth about the organization is not compromised by a desire to make the JW organization look good. They have access to lots of old JW literature that JWs can't access without visiting sites that they're told by their leaders to not visit.

This isn't to say that persons on here aren't bias. Of course many of us are biased. But our bias is to showing you facts about the JW organization - from their own literature - that JWs don't want you to know. The JWs' bias is toward withholding all negative facts. Which bias do you prefer? The bias of the used car salesman telling you his vehicles are the best thing since sliced bread, and warning you to not listen to former customers because they're all disgruntled liars? Or the bias of the former customers whose negative experiences form a consistent pattern revealing his vehicles to be faulty and his business practices to be less than ethical?

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

Island Man

Also, what Paul wrote in Corinthians shows that the God of the Bible would not hold it against people if they innocently partook of customs that once had pagan religious significance, for that is comparable to innocently partaking of meat that was once part of an idolatrous ceremony.

The motives of the individual is key. And this is the point JWs are missing when they condemn others for innocently celebrating birthdays, Christmas, Mother's Day, etc. People engage in these activities innocently without any pagan religious devotions in mind - just like the christian who innocently partakes of meat that was once used in an idol sacrifice does not have any idol-sacrifice religious motives in mind.

The JWs are blind pharisees who worship, not the god that Paul preached about, but a petty god of stigma who stigmatizes innocent, modern-day customs engaged in innocently, due to some long past association with pagan religious rites. The JW god is not Paul's God. The JWs god is a god who will kill christians for innocently eating meat that was once part of the ceremony at a pagan temple. The JW god would require that the christians inquire to make sure that the meat was not used in idol sacrifce, while Paul's God doesn't require the christian to ask but to innocently partake in good conscience.

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

Island Man

Don't forget this very important bit for text in Acts 15:

20 but that we write unto them that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from olden times hath in every city those who preach him, he being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.”

113

I am deeply ashamed that I didn't accept evolution until a few years ago...

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

so... i live in mexico and i am helping with an esl class (english as a second language).

actually, i am helping with two classes.

i get two days a week in which i just stand there and have a debate with the class, encouraging as many as possible to just talk... in english.. anyways, i like talking about subjects that generate debate.

Island Man

How about the protozoa known as Amoeba dubia? It has a genome more than 200 times bigger than a human!

Wow! Really? I say we make that protozoa the official mascot of JWs. The huge genome stands for Watchtower's huge collection of publications that they've produced, most of which is now out of print junk that bring them shame.

41

what are your thoughts on this quote from the elders book?

by aboveusonlysky in

'in order to extend mercy, the committee must be convinced that the wrongdoer has a changed heart condition and that he has a zeal to right the wrong and is absolutely determined to avoid it in the future.'.

shepherd the flock page 91. i remember this is one of the first things that concerned me as an elder because it seemed to sound like a person is guilty until proven innocent rather than 'love believes all things', especially given the word 'convinced' appears in bold.. then in a training video one elder said something like 'unless we are convinced of repentance the shepherd the flock book says we must disfellowship'.

that was the begining of the end for me as i thought surely true christians would reason the other way round and show mercy wherever possible.. any thoughts?.

Island Man

That advice in the elder's book is quite antithetical to the behavior of the father in Jesus' prodigal son parable.

There are no scriptures stipulating that an individual must demonstrate a convincing attitude of repentance to avoid being expelled from the congregation or before being reinstated.

Jesus mentioned that if you speak to the person and he listens to you then you have gained him. Jesus also said to freely forgive those asking forgiveness. So a sinner only has to listen to the congregation in the sense of ceasing his bad conduct and ask forgiveness, to avoid being expelled or to qualify for reinstatement.

18

Christians made me stop believing in the Bible

by jws in

i'm agnostic.

there could be a god, but i don't believe it's the god described in the bible.i grew up a jw believing in the bible.

after i left, i didn't want religion but was determined to be a christian on my own.. but things started to unravel.

Island Man

It makes me wonder what I'm still blindly accepting as fact that is actually false.

Maybe it's this (inaccurately proportioned mercator maps of the world):

The only accurately proportioned map of the world is one found on a globe like this: